This is to understand how JD was a fake man and who because of his own insecurities and inferiority complex did what he did to himself, his family and also to LEF.
JD had a great obsession for western life and he pretty much abhorred his Indian roots and made every possible effort to project himself and his family members as westerners.
Here are a list of anomalies.
1. Change of Last Name from "Nagabathula" to "Daniel"
How and why did this family drop its legal last name? Senior Daniel's last name was "Nagabathula" and that's why he was known as N. Daniel. The male members of Telugu families carry down the family surname. How did all these people magically turn into "Daniel family?" Was "Nagabathula" too Indian and are these family members trying to hide their own ethnic identity and want to pass off as "westerners?"
2. JD pre-meditated his and his family's move to the US more than 50 years ago
In 1960s, when international travel was unheard of for not only most commoners but also for the rich and the elite of India, JD has ensured that he along with his wife came to US on a visitor visa to deliver their son, John Daniel in USA so that his son can become an American citizen. He repeated the same process to get foreign citizenship for some of his other children.
3. JD ensured that all his children were ready to move to US at the drop of a hat:
JD ensured that all of his five children went to "Hebron School" in Ooty to westernize them as much as possible even before he physically moved them all to USA. This he did by giving a special status of "missionary kids" to he children.
4. The marriages of his children to European girls:
JD connived the whole process of his sons' marriages to ensure that his family is as western looking as possible. The one who is still unmarried (JrLD) is the one who couldn't entice an European or an American to marry her. Allegedly, she did try out the live-in relationships like her older brothers but was not lucky enough like her brothers to entice the live-in mates to tie the nupital knots.
Now why would the "GODLY" man Joshua Daniel do such "WORLDLY" things?
Answer to the above question and examining every aspect of JD's personal life helps the readers understand how JD's life was full of contradictions. He had one rule for people who he bossed over and another for himself and his family members.
On Marriages:
JD's rule for LEF: Girls and boys should not interact with each before marriage. Most LEF couples who got married under JD's guidance saw each other only at the marriage ceremony.
JD's rule for himself and his family: JD talks about his engagement and also proudly talks about the letter communication he had with his fiancee (LD) in his own autobiography. Now, all of JD's daughters-in-law lived with JD and LD before their marriages to JD's sons. JD and LD wanted to try out and see if the future daughters-in-law can fit in and of course all of this is disguised as "training" to take on the role of becoming JD's daughter in law.
On moving abroad:
JD's rule for himself and family: He moved his entire family abroad by hook or by crook and settled them in US.
JD's rule for LEF: He had the audacity and cheekiness to rail against people who aspired to move abroad for employment. If he met somebody in the US from LEF, he made every effort to tell them to go back to India.
On using LEF money:
JD's rule for himself and family: As LD herself claimed her husband, JD never had gainful employment but provided for her and the family. So, that basically means LEF money was used to support JD and his family.
JD's rule for LEF: JD made it more than clear that LEF is not anybody's employer and that people who are willing to sacrificially serve God are welcome to come and work as LEF evangelists.
We will continue in the next blog how this whole process of JD's family migrating to USA was a huge financial liability for LEF as an organization.
JD had a great obsession for western life and he pretty much abhorred his Indian roots and made every possible effort to project himself and his family members as westerners.
Here are a list of anomalies.
1. Change of Last Name from "Nagabathula" to "Daniel"
How and why did this family drop its legal last name? Senior Daniel's last name was "Nagabathula" and that's why he was known as N. Daniel. The male members of Telugu families carry down the family surname. How did all these people magically turn into "Daniel family?" Was "Nagabathula" too Indian and are these family members trying to hide their own ethnic identity and want to pass off as "westerners?"
2. JD pre-meditated his and his family's move to the US more than 50 years ago
In 1960s, when international travel was unheard of for not only most commoners but also for the rich and the elite of India, JD has ensured that he along with his wife came to US on a visitor visa to deliver their son, John Daniel in USA so that his son can become an American citizen. He repeated the same process to get foreign citizenship for some of his other children.
3. JD ensured that all his children were ready to move to US at the drop of a hat:
JD ensured that all of his five children went to "Hebron School" in Ooty to westernize them as much as possible even before he physically moved them all to USA. This he did by giving a special status of "missionary kids" to he children.
4. The marriages of his children to European girls:
JD connived the whole process of his sons' marriages to ensure that his family is as western looking as possible. The one who is still unmarried (JrLD) is the one who couldn't entice an European or an American to marry her. Allegedly, she did try out the live-in relationships like her older brothers but was not lucky enough like her brothers to entice the live-in mates to tie the nupital knots.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Now none of the above acts come as a surprise from somebody who can be termed as "WORLDLY" based on LEF's lexicon.Now why would the "GODLY" man Joshua Daniel do such "WORLDLY" things?
Answer to the above question and examining every aspect of JD's personal life helps the readers understand how JD's life was full of contradictions. He had one rule for people who he bossed over and another for himself and his family members.
On Marriages:
JD's rule for LEF: Girls and boys should not interact with each before marriage. Most LEF couples who got married under JD's guidance saw each other only at the marriage ceremony.
JD's rule for himself and his family: JD talks about his engagement and also proudly talks about the letter communication he had with his fiancee (LD) in his own autobiography. Now, all of JD's daughters-in-law lived with JD and LD before their marriages to JD's sons. JD and LD wanted to try out and see if the future daughters-in-law can fit in and of course all of this is disguised as "training" to take on the role of becoming JD's daughter in law.
On moving abroad:
JD's rule for himself and family: He moved his entire family abroad by hook or by crook and settled them in US.
JD's rule for LEF: He had the audacity and cheekiness to rail against people who aspired to move abroad for employment. If he met somebody in the US from LEF, he made every effort to tell them to go back to India.
On using LEF money:
JD's rule for himself and family: As LD herself claimed her husband, JD never had gainful employment but provided for her and the family. So, that basically means LEF money was used to support JD and his family.
JD's rule for LEF: JD made it more than clear that LEF is not anybody's employer and that people who are willing to sacrificially serve God are welcome to come and work as LEF evangelists.
We will continue in the next blog how this whole process of JD's family migrating to USA was a huge financial liability for LEF as an organization.
Folks,
ReplyDeleteIrrespective of rights and wrongs of the topics discussed, these are issues that concern those who attend the Fellowship or are related to Fellowship ministries.
You are, however, using a blog, a device that is used to speak to the whole world to discuss Fellowship matters.
You do not understand the scale on which you are operating.
Please find a space where only fellowship people can talk and discuss these issues.
Blogging on these matters for the entire world to see is not okay.
If the Daniels had listened to the advice of their peers fifteen years or more ago ('peers' is somewhat misleading, since those who attempted to remonstrate with them were truly godly, genuinely humble men) their misdeeds would have been dealt with internally then. They have only themselves to blame for the open exposure they are now experiencing.
DeleteYour time and energy might be more usefully employed in persuading the Daniels that what they have been doing is 'not OK', and that they need to make some attempt to be answerable to those they have wronged, and continue to wrong.
The Daniels were never ready for a meeting to discuss contentious issues.They were always accusing those who ask questions as children of darkness.Are LD and JJD are ready for a debate where they can explain their many controversial actions and their present predicament .Are they ready for a discussion /debate which we would record over video and publish it on social media.
DeleteLily and John we want you to speak.Stop accusing people.Understand Facts and accept reality.You people are losing your ideological base .Even your yes men and supporters will soon loose faith in LEF because you are not trustworthy.
To Anonymous @16:41
DeleteFellowship is very much in this world. Why are you so concerned . Why can t any one discuss about the fellowship. Enough evidence that this is a cult. Even outsiders have every right to know what is happening inside the organisation which proudly proclaims that it is evangelising. I dont think it s an internal matter when large scale corruption, hawala and all kinds of abuses are taking place inside
Irrespective of rights and wrongs of the topics discussed means you are a waffle, then why do you preach as prophets for whole continents, A matter is right or wrong.
Deletethese are issues that concern those who attend the Fellowship or are
related to Fellowship ministries
A money and offerings are received for the christian society The matters are concerning to everybody, and what matters, Stealing, embezzling, Illegal Hawala, No accounts,, No rules etc. these are cloaked under a cloak of religiosity and so need to be known by all
You are, however, using a blog, a device that is used to speak to the whole world to discuss Fellowship matters.
You please start a blog and write your side of the story.
Please find a space where only fellowship people can talk and discuss these issues.
You find for me a place, where Lily Nagabanthalu, John Joshua Nagabanthalu, IC an his wife and concubine, Nagabanthalu children with their previous live in partners, ex partners, will be present. First song will be "Holiness, Holiness is what I need" by IC and his 2 wife's. The Lily Nagabanthalu will lecture to me, "If you talk bad of Gods children that's it, you will directly go to Hell, conveniently forgetting the Bible verse " If a man says he is a christian he is to refrain from all evil".
Blogging on these matters for the entire world to see is not okay
It is Okay as I have to warn that a poisonous snake is a poisonous snake and not a piece of rope to the whole world, especially when the poisonous snake itself pretends to be a rope.
Anonymous 19 March 4.41
DeleteCould you be a non-Indian follower of the LEF, and closely related to one of Joshua Daniel's acolytes, I wonder? The terminology you use sounds a little familiar.......
These matters have gone beyond the stage of internal examination, sadly. Those accused have already been approached in private and have refused to respond or explain actions and behaviour which have been plainly witnessed by many people both inside and outside of India.
Here comes Mr. Free advice.
ReplyDelete"You are, however, using a blog, a device that is used to speak to the whole world to discuss Fellowship matters. You do not understand the scale on which you are operating."
Why are you worried about this Mr. Concerned? You want people to gossip about LEF rogues and not expose them? We definitely understand the scale of what we are doing. Probably it is you who are shocked at the enormity of how much dung was covered up in LEF and you are losing your sleep over it when it is exposed.
Also, how did you forget that the "I" LEFI stands for "International." Shouldn't this rot of LEF of international status be exposed to international audience?
"Blogging on these matters for the entire world to see is not okay."
What are you thinking? Are you expecting that we will say - "Sir, sorry. We did not know that it was not Okay to blog about these matters to entire world. Now that you told us, we are going to shut down the blog." What a fool you are to walk in with your unsolicited advice. Also, what an exaggerated image of yourself you carry to think that your advice will be taken? If reading the blog is bothering and "hurting" your feeling, just don't read. The solution is as simple as that.
"JD has ensured that he along with his wife came to US on a visitor visa to deliver their son, John Daniel in USA so that his son can become an American citizen. He repeated the same process to get foreign citizenship for some of his other children". unbelievable...... Why JD never spoke about his citizenship? Do the people in LEF know all about this? If they do not know, Whom he was trying to fool all these years.. A mega plan so meticulously carried out to settle in the US and the people who pour in their tithes and offerings are so ignorant (incluing me .. thank God not now) and their tithes and offerings are used. Please expose all these with more details , if possible with the time frame.
ReplyDeletethere is one more family just like IC very close to top family ,copy what the first family does and eye even to take hold of some of the position of the close relatives of first family sent many away WASHINGTONS
ReplyDeleteDont blame Washingtons.They are politically active but not as wicked as IC.They are people who always wish to be on the winning side.That may not be ethical but it is not criminal.
DeleteBeating helpers , bribing them to spy for them and lie for them is not evil. While the sons lived as they liked and not letting the girls to attend retreat just for showing some skin is not evil. Just to put the lieing sons on the top gossiping about others and push the others down and cover it up with money and abuse is not evil. Stopping marriages and splitting families to coverup the truth is not evil. Threaten people to kill to stop them from telling the truth is not evil. There is much more the verbal abuse led to death of a helper evil people covered it up with money not only they are politians they are good actors want to be big in Led but never obey single thing still nobody knows but one day they will stand in front of God and answer in their knees they are not going to escape for the cause of many many tears and heart ache for their greed
DeleteBeating the helpers to spy for them otherwise stop their marriages' bribe people to stop them from attending others bible study acting as if they are the saviors and stab behind your back let sons live filthy life even have evrything before marriage but keep the girls from retreat because their blouse showed little skin abusing the helper to the extent of getting heart attack and cover it up with money push many down to get the pulpit and try to counsel the same they oppressed. For every one of these there are many many vitnesses there are more which can not be mentioned threaten people even to murder because they are active politically too which many don't known use that power to get close to the top family. Just like top family they don't answer to any but split many families to get what they want. Which one of these are not evil if peoples life is changed irreparably and still not accountable
By the way IC and Washington's were friends from childhood even the families probably not now Washington's are very smart playing safe which is ultimate wickedness Antichrist will play the same way use peace smooth talking top position but devour people
DeleteWhy none of the children of Joshua Daniel got trained in the Bible College run by LEF. Liz Van Camp studied in Bethel College ( Religious Center) in USA as per her face book profile. Any info on where John Daniel studied theology? Is LEF sending any of their evangelists to study theology in Indian Bible Colleges?
ReplyDeleteMr.Anonymous 20 March 2015 at 20:33 .
DeleteAre you joking.You cannot expect kings to fight the batle from the forefront.They are people born with the silver spoon .I hope LD ,JJD and those from that family who occupy the pulpit space learn the bible and present it with prayer.
Anonymous 20 March @ 20.33
Delete.....probably because they are aware that nothing of value is now taught there?
Yes it is true they never went to the Bible College, 3 of us which come from much poor backgrounds from my city Valparaiso went, I went 2 times. We always went in winter time Johnny was at Notre Dame @ the time, so he never went. Betty had already run away to marry Brian. This is what caused me to drop out of Fellowship, John was driving a Benz going to Notre Dame, JD house was never in order as his daughter ran away, yet Lily applied such a hypocritical high standard for me, I was expected to drive them around and be their slave, it was very bad. We were expected to sacrifice everything but John could go to Notre Dame and not sacrifice any thing at all, they wanted him to be in charge even though he could not preach very well. Brother Witsen was great person I enjoyed the Bible school even though it was a bit strange and small. Brother Witsen knew the Bible very well. It was a bit anti-Pentecostal though, the Pentecostal were anti repentance so the whole situation was devastation for me. I publicly called Joshua a hypocrite at a retreat, I read Matthew 23 at JD during prayer at a retreat, I was actually pushed out of the door and told never to come back after I swindled out of large sum of money (4 trips to India, driving everyone around constantly, etc...) Nobody cared, nobody called, We made amends after his heartache but he never apologized or repented of anything. I emailed the headquarters a million times before he died, it is waste of time.
DeleteWhen Betty was allowed back in without repentance it was too much, they kept saying I was the reason there was no revival and other totally wicked things about me.
Joshua made some money on his own when he preached in American churches, LEF did not pay for everything. But Notre Dame is quite expensive, so is Valparaiso University, Bethel college was not very good, she attended there when she ran away from home to marry Brian in some lame effort to hurt her father. Well I guess it worked but who marries some one to punish their father? Best of luck trying to fix LEF, I tried long ago it did not work.
Thanks for this info., Gary. I doubt that many will be surprised now at what you have written. I don't think the purpose of this blog is to fix LEF. You can't 'make a silk purse out of a sow's ear', as my father used to say! There will always be people who close their eyes and ears to painful truths, but there is a lot of indication that the huge amount of evidence, still mounting, both here and on the Suniemi blog, is causing many to leave LEF, or at least re-think their position and their financial support of it.
DeleteI think those who contribute to this blog want to try to help those trapped in LEF to escape from it, as you did. In America and Europe that is easier to do.....as you know, having been to India and seen the realities of their situation.
That you actually challenged Joshua Daniel aloud with Scripture in the middle of one of his prayer sessions is quite inspiring. Were you a lone voice at that time, or did others join you? Please post anything else from your LEF experiences, both in India and the USA, which might help build up the picture and convince people still deceived by LEF, especially in India, to do so something about it.
nobody cared, it was devastating, only after his first heart attack some LEF member called and asked me to pray for him, it was hard not to hang up the phone on them. I had to drive to South Bend to get my Bible back, it was very bad. I was pushed out the door in-front of everyone. The service just went on like nothing happened. His mother remained friendly with me. She wasn't there but I sure she knew about it, along with his sister, they were worried about Johnny even back then.
DeleteThanks for continuing to post, Gary. I expect you would rather not have had to re-visit such unpleasant memories, but they will hopefully strike a chord with people still entrapped in, and bamboozled by, LEF.
DeleteDo you have anything useful to add about the way in which money was collected and handled, and how its use was explained (or not!)? Where did you worship with LEF? Was it purchased premises? Who paid for this, from what money, and if out of your offerings, were you ever consulted, as a group, about such matters?
John Daniel seems to be trying to establish himself as a 'pillar of the community' in Salem. He is on a township committee which has something to do with finances and property. His wife has even been given some kind of community award by the state of Michigan. It is worrying that people in the USA seem to be oblivious of this family's true colours, although I understand that some people who know about the Daniels have been in contact with a Mr. Whittaker of Salem Township Committee about John Daniel's history and the realities about LEF now being disclosed. There are two concerns: 1. That the Daniels are promoting a damaging and cultish group there. 2. That John Daniel seems to be involved in the handling of other people's assets.
It might be helpful if those of you who had negative experiences of LEF, and specifically of John and Joshua Daniel, some years back, would also contact Mr. Whittaker and warn Salem Township. I understand that the details can be found on line under that subject heading.
Gary, if only more people had the guts to publicly confront the Daniels, they could have never gotten this far. It’s shocking to hear that they had people to drive them for free even in the US. I though they only manipulated those in India!!
DeleteIt’s odd somebody will use marriage to hurt the father. Is this why Betty eloped when the parents were away in India for the retreat? Now on Facebook she alleges that her husbands were responsible for the break ups and she was an innocent victim!! She covers the fact that she lived Chris before getting married. Again it appears that she travelled with Chuck to India, Paris, London before they were married and her father still let her on the retreat stage. I wonder if they also lived together before the marriage.
Joshua Daniel publicly mocked Maruti Suzuki which brought affordable & modern cars to Indians and kept preaching against car ownership but he and his family only used Mercedes!
Nagabanthalu clan was white in colour and imagined to be whites and tried to buy acceptance in USA by flashing stolen money. It didn't work
ReplyDeleteIn LEF there is no need for the Daniel children to learn anything. They know everything.from theology to architecture to medicine to politics.. They are schooled in the school of life and there is no more for them to learn. This you come to know on listening to their boring empty stupid low grade talks wrongly marketed as messages.They are born as preachers. Their Dad was a boy preacher you know
ReplyDelete25 years back the Devil was outside the Church campus
ReplyDelete20 years back he jumped into the campus
15 years back, he took the the place of the corridor of the churches
10 years back, he was sitting along and among the pew identifying as saints
Since 05 years he has invaded the pulpit and prime seats and positions within the Churches.
He and his folks already tempted Jesus saying, "IT IS WRITTEN"
BE NOT DECEIVED, MANY DECEIVERS HAVE GONE INTO THIS WORLD ......
Is it 'nagabathula', or NAMALA? Late Mr. N. Daniel is from Amalapuram, not AMBALAPURAM,as someone mentioned on another blog.
DeleteThe book Christian Gurus http://suniemi.wordpress.com/2015/03/09/christian-gurus-part-1-introducing-the-book/ mentions that Mr. N. Daniel was born in Ambalapuram in Godavari District, Andhra Pradesh. I am quoting from there. It could be an alternate name or older name for Amalapuram. http://www.getpincode.info/ambalapuram
DeleteIf you have formal or personal knowledge about his roots or other useful information, please contact me via my blog.
I think its not good to talk any bad about Mr. N. Daniel Or Deevena Amma garu. They did their work perfectly & faithfully. Of-course after him only started all these politics.
DeleteAnonymous March 30 12.35am
DeleteNo man is 'perfect' in the Lord's service. All have, or have had, flaws in their ministries, even such spiritual 'giants' as Calvin and Spurgeon. As far as I can see there were two main flaws in Mr. N. Daniel's ministry:
1. He failed to teach his converts sufficient (or any?) Biblical/theological doctrine, which led to his failure to establish independently and locally governed churches. Had he been obedient to the Scriptures in this matter, and relinquished his over-long control, the present situation would not have happened. Perhaps he himself had not been taught to discern the principles of ecclesiology, although I would have thought that these would naturally emerge as a person becomes more and more familiar with the Bible as a whole.
2. This lack of theological understanding leads to the content of his preaching. Admittedly I have not heard much of what he preached, but it is plain that his son Joshua imitated his father (see Suniem's digest of the Laymen's Evangelical Fellowship on his informative website). LEF preaching seems to major on what they think of as 'holiness', that is, behaviour. This is taken to an extreme, and inevitably those who preach an exaggerated message of 'good behaviour' and 'repentance' will fall far short themselves of what they dictate that others should be doing - we have seen many examples here. The 'holiness' movement came with the later years of John Wesley's preaching, and although Wesley was remarkably used in (genuine) revival, most would agree that in his later years he adopted some rather dubious ideas, one of which was the notion of 'sinless perfection'.
The problem with 'holiness' preaching is that is gives the hearer no basis for the government and discipline of the local church. It effectively ignores some of the main teachings of the pastoral and other New Testament epistles. It is almost wholly concentrated on the individual, to the exclusion of the understanding and promoting of the effective life of 'the body of Christ'.
Therefore Mr. N. Daniel did not help his converts as much as he could have.
As regards his wife, again I never met her. However I did feel she was excessively venerated, at least in her old age. How much she herself contributed to this I cannot say. Perhaps the idolatry associated with these self-appointed leaders only really took off with Joshua Daniel et al. The fact that she was referred to by LEF attenders as 'Mother Daniel' rang alarm bells in my mind (just as they did when Lily Daniel tried to excuse Joshua Daniel's excessive and unwarranted interference in the private lives of LEF attendees by saying that he was 'their spiritual father'; I believe I reminded her that, apart from our biological fathers, we should 'call no man father but our Father in Heaven'). I know from personal experience that Indians rather endearingly call all older ladies 'auntie', but Europeans do not, once they have emerged from childhood! Therefore to hear Europeans refer to the elder Mrs. Daniel as 'mother' was unsettling and rather worrying.
In short, we have been able to see and hear for ourselves the negative things associated with Joshua Daniel, his family, and his 'henchmen'. That abuse of power and apparent theological ignorance Is plain to any intelligent Christian who knows his/her Bible and is not afraid to identify it and make it public in the interests of 'weaker brethren'.
How much of the present Daniel family's negative behaviour and influence is due to the previous generation is harder to assess. Nobody is gratuitously 'talking bad' about Mr. and Mrs. N. Daniel. However it is important to examine how the present situation has come about, so that those suffering because of it can be helped to make sure that they spot the early symptoms of cultishness, and avoid any other self-appointed 'preacher' who might cause them pain in future.
How many of you know that Coonoor Woodcote bungalow had TV in 1980's? U can proofread this with Mr. Swamidass, Evangelist-Nilgiris... and acknowledge in your blog.
DeletePlease continue the next blog how this whole process of JD's family migrating to USA was a huge financial liability for LEF as an organization ASAP
ReplyDeletewhere is the pdf of Daniels, please release it ASAP as a nice Easter gift
ReplyDeleteYes please upload that PDF, 100 pages report on Daniels.. All the thousands of viewers of this blog will come to know more truths
ReplyDeleteI knew the Daniels before Betty ran away, their decline was gradual. The first meetings I went to @ the Sutton's house were very good. There was real conviction present but things gradually declined. It is hard to live christian life in USA it is very different than India. Joshua was a true prophet at one time, like Balaam who was true prophet as well.
ReplyDeleteJoshua Daniel's 'ministry' has always been on an unbiblical basis. However like many ultimately false teachers he did base it around the Word of God. The Holy Spirit is sovereign in His ministry, convicting whom He will, making Scripture come alive even when it emerges from the lips of those who do not really understand what they are preaching, or are preaching falsely for their own gain. We should not confuse the power of the Spirit with any power assumed by, or credited to, everyone who makes use of the Bible.
DeleteThe biblical status of prophet ceased with John the Baptist and the commencement of Jesus's ministry, so I suppose the most one can say is that Joshua Daniel was less corrupt in the past than in his later years. Some people are convicted and converted even when still attending cults and apostate groups like the Jehovah's Witnesses, or the Roman Catholic Church. Scripture tells us that the Word of God can do this, even in unlikely circumstances. As you indicate, God even spoke through a donkey!
I think it is hard to live the Christian life anywhere, ever. Every location has its challenges, some external, but mostly internal.
Thanks for your contributions, Gary. There seems to be a lot of mystery surrounding the activities of the Daniels and LEF in North America, and it seems wrong that the sometimes poor Indians who largely financed, and still finance, this family's presence and activities in the USA should be kept ignorant about the realities of what they do. Please keep posting.....
Well, actually Balaam was a false prophet made to prophecy blessing upon Israel against his intention. I think, altho i can't prove, that JD was known by some in India from the very beginning as unqualified and arrogant.
DeleteThere were several young men who came under JD's influence in Indiana, but they all eventually became disillusioned. Even years before the Daniels moved to Michigan, it was clear that they had no LEF converts in Indiana. Some folks would refer to their street in Indiana, Fair Oaks Drive, as Barren Oaks Drive. As the song goes, if you dare to be a Daniel, you dare to stand alone.
ReplyDeleteall left except Mrs Martin and some people from India
DeleteNorth American June 28 9.04pm
DeleteIs the Daniels' inability to make or sustain converts the reason for their various US house moves, do you think? No doubt Joshua Daniel blamed it on the 'hard-heartedness' of the Americans (amongst whom he chose to live....).
No American is going to be their slave, caste system is not acceptable here.I think only Indians on h1b visa will go to there church for any length of time.
DeleteTo Gary and Everyone with factual information:
DeleteAs someone formerly connected with LEF, I hope that Gary and Everyone with factual information about the wrongdoings of LEF come forward.
Gary, and others, please present FACTUAL information. Who did/said what, and when and where. The sort of facts that will be provable and will stick. Please leave your emotions out of it. By providing facts, you will be of great help to those who are still sitting on the fence.
I don't think their moves were related to what was or was not going on.
ReplyDeleteJohn and Joseph landed jobs in Detroit in the 90s. I think the others moved
there because there was no one coming to their South Bend meetings,
Lydia was the only kid at home, they had lots of grandchildren in Detroit, and
they thought they could help John's fledgling efforts there.
Gary's memories of JD's kids match mine. No matter what JD may have
preached about holding his children to higher standards than others,
that was not what people witnessed. The double-standards were
ridiculously glaring. JD expected that his children would be
a great help to his ministry, but John was the only one who jumped
in with both feet. One of the German leaders told me, even when
she was still 100% in the LEF, that JD's weakness was his children.
A part of the reason the German LEF severed its ties to the Daniels
was because they explicitly said that they would not have John
as their leader.
Regarding the "hardheartedness" of North America, I think this
was the only rationalization they could come up with for their
lack of converts. There are so many stories about John alienating
people in Detroit, but it was usually turned around as a THAT
person's problem. People see what they want to see.
I too was told by a German leader the same thing concerning the Daniel children, about the time they were shopping in Europe for suitable white girls for their sons. JD's own behavior shd. have been enough over the years for the normally intelligent Germans to have severed ties with LEF in my opinion, at least. As an aside, in the US an Indian emigre in an interview regarding marriage JD told him: "...and don't expect a white girl."
DeleteI heard the same thing about that brother who, although he was just as
ReplyDeletewestern as the Daniel boys, was told he would not get a white girl.
I completely agree with the report on the JD/LD strategy: bring the
white girls to South Bend under the pretense of ministry
(there was no viable ministry there)
so that they and the corresponding boy could assess them.
I wonder how free the girls were to say "no". At one public
gathering, I heard Joseph's wife complain out loud in front of a group how
unspiritual Joseph was (and if this is what she let slip out,
you can imagine how strongly she really felt). JD/LD also
had a German young man stay with John Daniel's family in Detroit.
It is widely believed that this poor guy was being assessed for Lydia.
This young man became so disillusioned that he ran away.