This blog post is the consolidation of various comments of people who have known this corrupt family in close quarters in US. Examining the comments of these people on this blog helps people understand why Joshua Daniel and his family cut such a sorry figure in their "ministry" in USA. While many Indian-based churches have flourished and are growing in the USA in the recent past with more and more Indians finding their way to US, LEF was decimated and is reduced to empty pews in the Christ Community Church that JD (Joshua Daniel) and clan try to boast of as some kind of monumental victory. It was interesting that Lydia Daniel(LD) decided to post some pictures of some God forsaken Easter Retreat in the magazine, Christ Victor. Except the white looking John Daniel's family(with an exception of John Daniel himself), there may have been 3-4 other Caucasians in the picture. Looks like Lydia Daniel and John Daniel have finally realized that Indians working in US have steady income in the US and it may be in the Daniels' best interest to lure Indians to US retreats to have steady source of income as the money reserves in LEF as we hear are depleting at an exponential rate. Joshua Daniel when alive and also John Daniel were known to put subtle pressure on parents whose children work in USA to have their children send their tithes to John Daniel and the clan (who from the inception of LEF have acted like parasites to eat the money from LEF non-profit). Not many would have succumbed to this pressure, but there are always some weaker ones who will fall prey into the hands of this Daniel family predators just like some American youth who for some period of time were under the evil grip of the conman, Joshua Daniel and his son John Daniel.
Here are the comments that throw a lot of light:
Comment 1: Yes, it is true Joshua's children never went to the Bible College. 3 of us who come from much poor backgrounds from my city Valparaiso, we went to India. We always went in winter time and Johnny was at Notre Dame @ the time, so he never went. Betty had already run away to marry Brian. This is what caused me to drop out of Fellowship. John was driving a Benz going to Notre Dame. Joshus Daniel's house was never in order as his daughter ran away, yet Lily applied such a hypocritical high standard for me. I was expected to drive them around and be their slave. It was very bad. We were expected to sacrifice everything but John could go to Notre Dame and not sacrifice any thing at all. They wanted him to be in charge even though he could not preach very well. Brother Whitson was a great person. I enjoyed the Bible school even though it was a bit strange and small. Brother Whitson knew the Bible very well. It was a bit anti-Pentecostal though, the Pentecostal were anti repentance so the whole situation was devastating for me. I publicly called Joshua Daniel a hypocrite at a retreat. I read Matthew 23 at Joshua Daniel and John Daniel during prayer at a retreat. I was actually pushed out of the door and told never to come back after I was swindled out of large sum of money (4 trips to India, driving everyone around constantly, etc...). Nobody cared. Nobody called.We made amends after his heartache but he never apologized or repented of anything. I emailed the headquarters a million times before he died, it is waste of time.
When Betty was allowed back in without repentance it was too much, they kept saying I was the reason there was no revival and other totally wicked things about me.
Joshua Daniel made some money on his own when he preached in American churches. LEF did not pay for everything. But Notre Dame is quite expensive, so is Valparaiso University, Bethel college was not very good, Betty attended there when she ran away from home to marry Brian in some lame effort to hurt her father. Well I guess it worked but who marries some one to punish their father?
Comment 2: Nobody cared, it was devastating, only after his first heart attack some LEF member called and asked me to pray for him. It was hard not to hang up the phone on them. I had to drive to South Bend to get my Bible back, it was very bad. I was pushed out the door in-front of everyone. The service just went on like nothing happened. His mother remained friendly with me. She wasn't there but I am sure she knew about it, along with his sister. They were worried about Johnny even back then.
Comment 3: I knew the Daniels before Betty ran away, their decline was gradual. The first meetings I went to @ the Sutton's house were very good. There was real conviction present but things gradually declined. It is hard to live christian life in USA it is very different than India. Joshua was a true prophet at one time, like Balaam who was true prophet as well.
Comment 4: All left except Mrs.Martin and some people from India. No American is going to be their slave, caste system is not acceptable here. I think only Indians on H1b visa will go to their church for any length of time.
Comment 5: I don't think their moves to Michigan were related to what was or was not going on.
John and Joseph landed jobs in Detroit in the 90s. I think the others moved there because there was no one coming to their South Bend meetings. Lydia was the only kid at home and they had lots of grandchildren in Detroit. Also, they thought they could help John's fledgling efforts there.
Gary's memories of Joshua Daniel's kids match mine. No matter what Joshua Daniel may have preached about holding his children to higher standards than others, that was not what people witnessed. The double-standards were ridiculously glaring. Joshua Daniel expected that his children would be a great help to his ministry, but John was the only one who jumped in with both feet. One of the German leaders told me, even when she was still 100% in the LEF, that Joshua Daniel's weakness was his children. A part of the reason the German LEF severed its ties to the Daniels was because they explicitly said that they would not have John Daniel as their leader. Regarding the "hardheartedness" of North America, I think this was the only rationalization they could come up with for their lack of converts. There are so many stories about John Daniel alienating people in Detroit, but it was usually turned around as a THAT person's problem. People see what they want to see.
Comment 6: I brought 3 people to Valpo meeting, one left after he got married to a woman they did not approve of, the other left after he went to college, I left after I was offended by their hypocrisy, after Betty ran away, what was there to sell, Joshua Daniel's house was not in order, according to the Bible he was not fit to be elder, Joseph and James always had problems as well, I think Joseph noticed something was wrong, James I don't know. It was easy to tell something was wrong, it will never grow in USA, only H1b visa people will go , it got much worse over time. John Daniel drove a Benz, it was very offensive, they tried but no sane person would support their ministry after one got to know them. Yes they used LEF funds to send their kids to most expensive schools while driving Benz, what can one do about it now, nothing. They tried to build a following but they became so evil over time.
Comment 7: The LEF money went to Notre Dame and Valparaiso University, and to their nice 350K house in south bend, they did try to build a following though but they mistreated me so bad I left, others notice it was unstable, At times Joshua Daniel spoke so wonderfully it was confusing, he could preach like a angel then act like the devil afterwords. He tried to force us to sign a document saying Joseph would return to India, we refused, we knew Joseph wanted money and would never leave USA. Joseph was honest but mainly he was driven by money. John was always driven by ecclesiastical clout (using religion to dominate from the love of self like the catholic church.)
Comment 8:Joshua Daniel and John Daniel were truly evil. He wanted me to drive him around all the time even though he was wealthy and I was a poor factory worker, I must have drove him to Chicago 15 times, he never once offered to pay for gas, he used to pray at me that I was hindrance to revival, which was really stupid as I was the only one that brought any one. Eventually I publicly called them hypocrites, they then attacked me pushed me out the door and told me never come back. I never even got a chance to get my Bible. I was in shock, I had made 4 trips to India. No he is a evil person, Lily is the same: one set of rules for them another for everyone else, John was driving a Benz before he got out of Notre Dame, why couldn’t he drive his dad around? I drove them to Oklahoma once, Lily had the nerve to preach about how playing Bible tapes in the car was wrong, she could have at least paid for gas instead of being hyper critically self righteous. What kind of person complains from the pulpit about Bible tapes, they blasphemed tongues all the time. Implied they had done great things for God while I had not, how would they know. She told me I did not meet the qualifications of an elder: however neither does she as her house was never in order. Betty ran away to marry someone that her Dad hated to get back at him.
Here are the comments that throw a lot of light:
Comment 1: Yes, it is true Joshua's children never went to the Bible College. 3 of us who come from much poor backgrounds from my city Valparaiso, we went to India. We always went in winter time and Johnny was at Notre Dame @ the time, so he never went. Betty had already run away to marry Brian. This is what caused me to drop out of Fellowship. John was driving a Benz going to Notre Dame. Joshus Daniel's house was never in order as his daughter ran away, yet Lily applied such a hypocritical high standard for me. I was expected to drive them around and be their slave. It was very bad. We were expected to sacrifice everything but John could go to Notre Dame and not sacrifice any thing at all. They wanted him to be in charge even though he could not preach very well. Brother Whitson was a great person. I enjoyed the Bible school even though it was a bit strange and small. Brother Whitson knew the Bible very well. It was a bit anti-Pentecostal though, the Pentecostal were anti repentance so the whole situation was devastating for me. I publicly called Joshua Daniel a hypocrite at a retreat. I read Matthew 23 at Joshua Daniel and John Daniel during prayer at a retreat. I was actually pushed out of the door and told never to come back after I was swindled out of large sum of money (4 trips to India, driving everyone around constantly, etc...). Nobody cared. Nobody called.We made amends after his heartache but he never apologized or repented of anything. I emailed the headquarters a million times before he died, it is waste of time.
When Betty was allowed back in without repentance it was too much, they kept saying I was the reason there was no revival and other totally wicked things about me.
Joshua Daniel made some money on his own when he preached in American churches. LEF did not pay for everything. But Notre Dame is quite expensive, so is Valparaiso University, Bethel college was not very good, Betty attended there when she ran away from home to marry Brian in some lame effort to hurt her father. Well I guess it worked but who marries some one to punish their father?
Comment 2: Nobody cared, it was devastating, only after his first heart attack some LEF member called and asked me to pray for him. It was hard not to hang up the phone on them. I had to drive to South Bend to get my Bible back, it was very bad. I was pushed out the door in-front of everyone. The service just went on like nothing happened. His mother remained friendly with me. She wasn't there but I am sure she knew about it, along with his sister. They were worried about Johnny even back then.
Comment 3: I knew the Daniels before Betty ran away, their decline was gradual. The first meetings I went to @ the Sutton's house were very good. There was real conviction present but things gradually declined. It is hard to live christian life in USA it is very different than India. Joshua was a true prophet at one time, like Balaam who was true prophet as well.
Comment 4: All left except Mrs.Martin and some people from India. No American is going to be their slave, caste system is not acceptable here. I think only Indians on H1b visa will go to their church for any length of time.
Comment 5: I don't think their moves to Michigan were related to what was or was not going on.
John and Joseph landed jobs in Detroit in the 90s. I think the others moved there because there was no one coming to their South Bend meetings. Lydia was the only kid at home and they had lots of grandchildren in Detroit. Also, they thought they could help John's fledgling efforts there.
Gary's memories of Joshua Daniel's kids match mine. No matter what Joshua Daniel may have preached about holding his children to higher standards than others, that was not what people witnessed. The double-standards were ridiculously glaring. Joshua Daniel expected that his children would be a great help to his ministry, but John was the only one who jumped in with both feet. One of the German leaders told me, even when she was still 100% in the LEF, that Joshua Daniel's weakness was his children. A part of the reason the German LEF severed its ties to the Daniels was because they explicitly said that they would not have John Daniel as their leader. Regarding the "hardheartedness" of North America, I think this was the only rationalization they could come up with for their lack of converts. There are so many stories about John Daniel alienating people in Detroit, but it was usually turned around as a THAT person's problem. People see what they want to see.
Comment 6: I brought 3 people to Valpo meeting, one left after he got married to a woman they did not approve of, the other left after he went to college, I left after I was offended by their hypocrisy, after Betty ran away, what was there to sell, Joshua Daniel's house was not in order, according to the Bible he was not fit to be elder, Joseph and James always had problems as well, I think Joseph noticed something was wrong, James I don't know. It was easy to tell something was wrong, it will never grow in USA, only H1b visa people will go , it got much worse over time. John Daniel drove a Benz, it was very offensive, they tried but no sane person would support their ministry after one got to know them. Yes they used LEF funds to send their kids to most expensive schools while driving Benz, what can one do about it now, nothing. They tried to build a following but they became so evil over time.
Comment 7: The LEF money went to Notre Dame and Valparaiso University, and to their nice 350K house in south bend, they did try to build a following though but they mistreated me so bad I left, others notice it was unstable, At times Joshua Daniel spoke so wonderfully it was confusing, he could preach like a angel then act like the devil afterwords. He tried to force us to sign a document saying Joseph would return to India, we refused, we knew Joseph wanted money and would never leave USA. Joseph was honest but mainly he was driven by money. John was always driven by ecclesiastical clout (using religion to dominate from the love of self like the catholic church.)
Comment 8:Joshua Daniel and John Daniel were truly evil. He wanted me to drive him around all the time even though he was wealthy and I was a poor factory worker, I must have drove him to Chicago 15 times, he never once offered to pay for gas, he used to pray at me that I was hindrance to revival, which was really stupid as I was the only one that brought any one. Eventually I publicly called them hypocrites, they then attacked me pushed me out the door and told me never come back. I never even got a chance to get my Bible. I was in shock, I had made 4 trips to India. No he is a evil person, Lily is the same: one set of rules for them another for everyone else, John was driving a Benz before he got out of Notre Dame, why couldn’t he drive his dad around? I drove them to Oklahoma once, Lily had the nerve to preach about how playing Bible tapes in the car was wrong, she could have at least paid for gas instead of being hyper critically self righteous. What kind of person complains from the pulpit about Bible tapes, they blasphemed tongues all the time. Implied they had done great things for God while I had not, how would they know. She told me I did not meet the qualifications of an elder: however neither does she as her house was never in order. Betty ran away to marry someone that her Dad hated to get back at him.
I request the Tamil speaking readers of this blog to read pages 16 and 17 of the Tamil Christian Whistleblower Magazine Jamakaran.LEF controversy is briefly covered here.
ReplyDeleteMore details will be available in the July Issue.
http://jamakaran.com/downloads/tamil_june-2015.pdf
Please will someone provide an English translation that can be posted here?
DeleteHere is the translation of what was published in an acclaimed Tamil magazine that is known to present unbiased facts about churches and church leaders.
DeleteQuestion: Why is it that you are not writing about the LEF Controversy. You publish information about all other churches but not LEF. We used to attend LEF HQ and heard of some controversy.Please enquire and Report.
Answer:From your message it is clear that you are inviting me to get into finer details of the controversy.The person who told you about LEF is concerned and is over protecting the Identity of LEF, which is good.
Late Bro Joshua Daniel during his days on earth did not build the next line of leadership.He failed to establish a good governing council who could manage the state of affairs in LEF.
He (Joshua Daniel) died without making peace with his only living sister with whom he never got along well.The other issue is he did not enforce the standards set for the members of LEF in his family.
I have received a number of emails and letters with proofs on irregularities in Bangalore and Chennai LEF which come under the direct control of the Daniel Family.I have received a lot of evidences on misappropriation of wealth by members of the Daniel Family in Bangalore.
As I am aware 3 families in Salem,India have left LEF and have moved on to the CSI Church.I hear many others leaving LEF in other places and joining mainline churches.This is unfortunate and i can compare this shift in allegiance (LEF --> CSI) to a guy in 10th Grade beginning to school again starting from 1st Grade.
I will be writing more on this issue in future issues of Jamakaran .
part1 of anotheer translation
DeleteQuestion to Dr. S. Puspharaj (editor of Jamakaran) from an unknown person
People are talking that there are some problems in the LEF (Laymen’s Evangelical Fellowship). Though we regularly attend the service(s) at the LEF Headquarters service in Madras (Chennai), even we do not know what the problem there is, we only heard that there was some problem. Someone in the LEF asked us to write to Jamakaran, and ask about what the problem is? Please send us the Jamakaran Magazine and also write about the problems in our LEF church, please inform us what the subscription amount for Jamakaran
Answer. Who is the nice person who encouraged you to ask (me), He/she is also a member of LEF church, Did you think, why he asked, you to ask me, about LEF Church? I think (or am convinced) that the person who asked you to ask the questions must be a true believer and a member of the LEF Church. I am sure that He/she is well informed about the problems in the LEF church, but He/she is embarrassed to tell about that, with his/her own mouth. Yes. The LEF church grew up because (/ due to) such good believers. But due to the founders (son) Bro Joe’s bad administration and also the fact that he died without developing suitable people to manage the churches after his death many problems occurred in the LEF church. Now the problems in the LEF church are seen outside in a gigantic size.
Sadly Even when Bro. Joe lived, (I know from close observation) He could not follow the LEF core teachings (/ rules for life) like (1) reconciliation, (2) A life free of graft (illegal money), (3) Living a different separated life, (4) Returning (of stolen goods), (5) Maintaining a testimony in one’s own personal life. With his sister Bro. Joe was not reconciled for many years, He was very strict with all centres demanding that they must be honest in money matters and have an open and transparent testimony in money matters. He taught like that and even commanded like that, Sadly He enforced (/tried to enforce) in all centres except in LEF Headquarters Madras (Chennai) and in Bangalore.
Part 2 of another translation (due to limit of 4096 characters)
DeleteBut though a lot of people wrote to Bro.Joe about the Bangalore Centre which was led by his relatives (his Late Brother Francis Daniel and Shanthi Daniel his wife) about embezzlement in finances, Properties amassed beyond legal income by the couple and their children, many a time with evidences and informed him over the years, Bro Joe did not /refused to take any action on the leaders in the Bangalore Centre. Moreover, further questions were asked like, why was the offering collection amounts in Bangalore centre(s) were not informed to the Headquarters? , Why Bangalore leaders did not send any of the offering money collected to the Headquarters and more importantly why no one questioned such actions (from the Headquarters). Many people now feel that Bro. John Daniel the son of Bro. Joe Daniel who has taken charge is afraid to ask the in charges of Bangalore centre about the properties list and the money matters. I (Dr. S. Pushparaj) have also received one copy of letter sent to the Headquarters about the corruption prevalent in Bangalore with a list of happenings.
I am writing with sadness that the proverb “I have one rule for my relatives and another for the village” should not become true in the LEF church. Over many months I have been receiving information about the corruption in LEF, and my readers have questioned me over email and letters as why I have not yet written about the LEF in Jamakaran. Is/As their leadership is/ continues to be hesitant / reluctant to take action on the complaints, I will write with more detains in the next issue of Jamakaran. Due to the problems / corruption in LEF, now many LEF church members are deserting / leaving the LEF church in many towns to different churches. I know personally of 3 families in a city known as Salem (Tami Nadu) who have left LEF church to join the CSI (Church of South India). Such leaving and joining in my opinion is like a 10th standard student joining a 1st standard class.
Readers of Jamakaran in Madras (Chennai) / LEF church members in Salem, please listen to me. If based on / due to illegal actions in the Headquarters you leave a good church the loss will be only to your soul. Let us all pray that soon change will take place in the LEF Headquarters (Leaders) (/ leaders will change).I will try to write about things which need to corrected in the LEF church in Jamakaran soon. I am going to write about how the LEF church and its church members need /must change (in doctrinal matters) based on bible verses in Jamakaran.
(By Dr. S. Puspharaj)
LEF is not 'a good church', even if the CSI is also not a good church. LEF is not even a church, and no amount of tinkering with it will make it a church, let alone a good one. LEF worshippers need either to join properly run evangelical fellowships, or begin other small groups where they live, and abandon any obvious connection with LEF in whatever name they meet under. This is the obvious next step, not trying to cobble up something that was never biblically organised in the first place and is more full of holes than a sieve. The worshippers will be the same, but the corruption will be eradicated, and biblical government introduced and nurtured.
DeleteSomeone in Tamil Nadu should print out a copy of this website's posts and send them to Dr. Pushparaj.
DeleteThe problem is not just about money, and not about one or two localities where mismanagement occurred. It runs deeper than that.
I know Dr.Pushparaj pretty well.He is aware of this blog.I am sure he will write considering all factors.He is not a mud slinger writing based on hearsay.He writes to people asking for clarifications and then writes a well researched article.
DeleteLEF is not a church .It is a JD family praising Club.Jesus is not glorified in LEF.In the next few days the LEF Annual Report will be out .Maybe it would be published online.I request the LEF members reading this blog to copy paste the Annual Report and run a word count on the following words.
Delete1.Jesus or Christ or Jesus Christ.
2.Joshua Daniel or Lily Daniel or John Daniel.
You would find more references to John,Joe and Lily.
I did the exercise for all annual reports present in their website.Christ was pushed to a corner and JD family took the centristage.
Gary Fleenor from Valporaiso, Indiana is one secret "anonymous" gutless whistleblower. You are busted for slander Mister, and all the lies you posted you will have to answer to. I was wondering who hates Dad and me so much?. The bitterness was spewing forth out of his tongue. When he gave away his hometown, we all know who this guy is. A liar. And a bully. Gary, I am tired of your bullying my family.
DeleteGary wanted to marry me when I was 18 - 22. I had no interest. So he has been irate with my father and me ever since. He hates Dad and hates me. Never got over me. Sorry I was not interested in you Gary, you should have gone on with your life and got married. Poor chap. 30 years later, you are still not over me. For shame.
He played guitar with me, I played the piano at the Retreats in the US when I was 18-19. To tell the truth Gary, you came to India out of your own freewill, everyone pays for their own ticket, and you reek of the entitlement mentality of the current Obama administration. If people choose to help out a church mowing the lawn, cleaning up, I know thousands of such helpful people all over the world. I am a public servant too. I clean the church toilets, the yard, clean up the trash, put hymnbooks out, and I do not get paid. I definitely do not whine about working for the church. Never got paid. Played the piano for free since age 5, never got paid. Never whined. Everything we do for God, He sees. Do it as unto God. He rewards you. Not people.
So you claim you were a slave. Wow.
You drove my parents around. I did too. Good for you. You could have said no, if you were unwilling. No one forced you.
John drove an old Benz. And what's wrong with that? Not everyone likes American cars? Are you jealous? Buy a Benz. Get over it.
OK here is your big lie, where you lose all your credibility. I sold my parents house in South Bend as the real estate broker. The selling price was a little over $100,000, a midsize house, just a roof over their heads, nothing fancy. You are so stingy you make up a lie $350,000? Jealous? Of what? A simple missionary house to go back and forth and do God's work, and be away from home almost all the time? Do you expect missionaries to sleep on the streets?
And jealous we went to college? All Indians go to college Gary. Get over it. I was on a fulltime piano scholarship to go to Bethel. I paid for myself. Dad told me he could not support me as a missionary. I understand. That's why I practised 8 hours a day from age 14-18 to get that scholarship. Go to college for guitar if you want.
Your lies, ill-will, hatred, jealousy, bitterness, bullying spew out of your writing. May God help you to forgive yourself for your attitude and move on with your life. All your lies have affected innocent people who have believed the things you say about my family. The Bible says do not be a stumblingblock. I did not say anything on whistleblowers but this post by Gary was just too many lies, and warranted a rebuttal.
If Whistleblowers is to be taken seriously, they need to tell the truth. Not just spew filth. Gary Fleenor needs to be taken off your list. He does not even tell the truth. I had to expose your lies Gary, sorry.
Eldest daughter of Joshua Daniel
Let me complement Betty's version of events with
Deletea story that shows how the Daniels dealt with people.
JD talked to a Canadian brother at a retreat (let's call
this brother C for Canadian) and asked him to consider
coming to South Bend to take care of the "center" while
the family was at the May retreat. This seemed like silly request
given that there was no real activity, etc. A few
days before the retreat, JD phones C and angrily demands,
"Hey, are you coming down here or not?" Of course no
non-Daniel could say no, so C took time off from his work, drove
eight hours (each way, paid his own gas) and babysat the house for 10 days.
What happened over those 10 days?
1) Joseph Daniel visited on the weekend (obviously HE could
have taken over any of the needs there since he lived closeby).
JD/LD could also have asked Betty, who also lived in South Bend,
to check in in that the house was OK.
2) C was left a note with things to take care of, including
the dangerous job of going up on the high roof to clean the gutters.
3) The only ministry-related phone call was from a doctor in
Guyana who was fed up with the LEF situation there and said
he wanted nothing more to do with it. This change in LEF Guyana
was never related in Christ is Victor.
4) Lydia Daniel visited the house for several days. What
was poor C supposed to do, leave the house and incur JD's wrath,
or stay in a situation (single man and single woman in one house)
in which no faithful LEFer should put up with?
5) C led a prayer meeting (with almost no one there).
Was this an abuse of C? Absolutely. Could C have said no?
Yes, but he knew that he would have "fallen from grace"
before the Big Man. LEFers are taught that other churches
have no standards and are inferior, so LEFers are afraid to
do anything the leadership frowns upon lest they be cursed.
In no normal church would C have been asked such a stupid request.
Betty Daniel can complain all she wants, but as a Daniel kid, she
could go and do whatever but still get up on the platform the next day.
Not so with others.
LEF people, wake up! Follow the truth, not the Daniels.
I have never met Betty Daniel, but from what she writes and posts on Facebook, and what she has now written here, she seems at best to be one very confused lady, both emotionally and spiritually.
DeleteSome comments on her Whistleblower rant:
1. Gary has made no secret of his identity. Anyone who reads the Whistleblower and 'Understand the Truth' sites will be aware of his name and background.
2. The experiences that Gary relates are common to many who have had contact with Joshua Daniel and his cultish organisation, LEF. He has never said that he hates Joshua Daniel and his family, but has simply confirmed what many of us have either experienced or seen for ourselves.
3. The evidence suggests that Betty has had rather a troubled life, in which a preoccupation with men seems to have played a major role. There may be a degree of narcissism exhibited in her claim that Gary wanted to marry her, although she herself may believe this; or she may simply be telling such tales to try to discredit Gary's evidence. It is quite sad, however, to read that she seems to think that Gary is 'still not over' her. I think we can reasonably put this down to the delusions of a now middle-aged woman from a dysfunctional family who is normally a little bit desperate to present herself to be some kind of rival spiritual mentor to her brother, by various means (latterly via an Indian 'Christian' TV programme. The pictures preceding her 'messages' seem to be of LEF functions in Beulah Gardens, pictures of crowds of listeners; the implication is that they are listening to Betty, although she is apparently banned from that platform, and hence did not appear to be present at the 2015 May retreat. She still describes herself on Facebook as having responsibility for the music in LEF. All of that is both dishonest and an example of self-aggrandisement unbecoming to one who names the name of Christ. Such a one is in no position to make accusations of dishonesty against someone like Gary).
4. Betty has in the past disassociated herself publicly from her mother Lily, some of her siblings, and from her father's (Joshua Daniel's) actions in encouraging the corruption and 'goonda' behaviour of certain people who have gained power in LEF. Why is she now trying to defend them?
5. Betty says that she now cleans church toilets, presumably in her present husband's small fellowship in America. Did she, or any of her immediate family, ever clean anything in the Indian LEF premises?
6. Betty underplays the sale of her parents' South Bend house, but does not say to whom the proceeds were given, or who paid for her brother's present home, which is worth considerably more than $100k, and is registered as an LEF centre.
Ctd..........
Re Betty Daniel's rant (ctd.)
Delete7. Betty claims that 'all Indians go to college'. Such a claim, so confidently made, speaks volumes about the influence of Betty's USA upbringing and citizenship on her understanding of the plight of many who share her ethnic origins but not her privileges. She may have obtained some kind of scholarship, but who paid for her siblings' education? Who paid for whatever cars they drove, and their homes, bearing in mind that their father (and their mother) constantly boasted that he never worked and earned money to keep himself and his wife and five children? Betty seems to think that calling oneself a 'missionary' is an automatic entitlement to the use of other people's resources for one's own or one's family's advancement.
8. Betty thinks that Gary should be 'taken off the list'. What list? The Whistleblower and Suniemi blogs have at last provided an opportunity for abused people to speak out, people who had been silenced by the threats of Betty's parents for decades. There is no 'list', only the proviso that there should be reasonable confirmatory evidence for what is written. Betty seems to want to continue the Daniel family tradition of silencing criticism or questioning by any means.
9. Betty has directed all her wrath towards Gary. She makes no mention of all the other evidence written by so many which confirms her family's misdemeanours. Gary's comments arrived very late in the day. Has Betty nothing to say about the overwhelming evidence, from people of different ages, nationalities, educational backgrounds, and indeed seniority in the LEF hierarchy, which preceded Gary's contribution?
Betty Daniel has now broken the Daniel family's silence in the face of all the evidence against them, but she has done so only to pillory one individual in a very personal way, and with the incredible claim that his contribution to this site is because thirty years ago he wanted to marry her, but was refused, so has been nurturing simultaneously a desire for revenge and an unrequited passion for her ever since.
I am old enough to be a mother to both Gary and Betty.
My advice to Gary is not to respond to such a silly post from Betty.
My advice to Betty, if she really wants to be helpful, is to set aside her delusions of spiritual grandeur and persuade her mother, brother John, and sister to examine theirs and their husband's/ father's actions over many decades, to admit to the bullying, the mismanagement of tithes and offerings, and the chasing after more and more power and acclaim, and to see that whatever can be put right is put right with immediate effect.
Good try, Betty Daniel. In an effort to defend your family and yourself you threw a great light on how your family operated and continues to operate. Please do not expect Gary's exposing the dark deeds of your family as some kind of ranting of a lover whose heart is broken. There is more to his exposing your than what meets the eye. His numbers may be off but that doesn't make him liar. Now in an effort to expose him, you exposed the lies of your great "missionary dad." Here are some questions you might want to think of answering more to yourself than to others? Where did your dad get the money that your dad lived in ( you might remember that no LEF evagelist ever owned a home at any time during their work with LEF). So, yes- you confirmed that your dad owned a home. Also, who kept the 100,000 that you the real estate agent sold the house for? Can any LEF evangelist ever get to sell a house or LEF property? Now coming to talking about mowing the church. Do not hoodwink people. There was not church. It was your parents' home and why did Gary have to mow the lawn? What happened to not one but five able bodied children of Joshua Daniel? Gary has an entitlement mentality? You must be joking... Why did anybody have to drive your parents around in their cars when your brothers had Benz cars...I mean an old German Benz car? It shows that JD had some lame children who let their parents be like parasites who sucked out blood from poor guys like Gary. Great family testimony!!! Yes, all Indian kids go to college but no Indian kid is lucky to have many Garys' tithes and offerings pay for his/her college like your siblings were. More to follow...stay tuned
DeleteNow this is puzzling! Joshua Daniel at one stage lived at 21844 North Lyon Tr., S. Lyon, MI 48178. This house was sold in the year 2000 for $240K. Did the Daniels buy it for this amount, or was this the amount they received for selling it and moving on to South Bend?
DeleteIf they bought it for this amount, where did the purchase money come from, considering Joshua Daniel 'never had a pay check' and did not 'inherit ancestral property'? If they sold it for this amount before moving to South Bend, and Betty Daniel eventually sold the South Bend house for only $100K, as she claims here, what happened to the $140K difference in price between the worth of the S. Lyon house and the worth of the S. Bend house?
The house that John Daniel now lives in (7284 Angle Road, Northville) cost at least $100K more than the South Lyon house, and if Betty is to be believed, at least $240K more than the $100K Betty sold the previous (South Bend) house for. The current valuation for the Angle Road house is over $400K.
Then again, there is the re-financing of the current house in 2012. How much of this house (regd. both as an LEF centre and John Daniel's private business) belongs to LEF worshippers? All? Some? Or did the latterly unemployed John buy it entirely from his own funds, in which case it is none of LEF contributors' business. If he did not, from whom did he seek permission to refinance, and for what purpose? In fact, if the Daniels used LEF funds to finance these house moves, who authorised their moves, assessed what their needs were, and agreed the sums required?
Betty Daniel has added to this suspicious confusion. Can she explain it all, as she tried to explain how 'humbly' her parents lived........? Betty thinks that 'missionaries' should not be expected to 'sleep on the streets'. Does she know that the incomes and expenses of real missionaries are assessed and granted in conjunction with a committee representing the people whose tithes and offerings support them? (No wonder Joshua Daniel despised 'committees'! ).
Concerning the blog written by Betty Daniel on July 15 at 10.17pm:
DeleteBetty Daniel, under the name 'Liz Van Camp', claims to be co-pastor of a small gathering known as 'Miami Village Church' in South Bend, USA. She does this alongside her third husband, Charles (or 'Chuck') Lambdin. Betty is also involved in real estate (a glance at the reviews for the Van Camp business will indicate how successfully!).
She also now appears on Indian TV (Telegu) as a 'Christian' speaker. The first broadcast of this was simultaneous with the LEF May retreat, which she did not attend, although she was apparently in India at the time, presumably having entered the country via a trip to Nepal following the initial earthquake. A letter from her father published on this blog states that he had banned her from the LEF platform because of her third marriage. Why she played such a public and prominent part in his funeral rites, and why he did not react similarly to her second marriage, is a mystery in the circumstances; as is his sanctioning of an alleged holiday she took with her third husband, before they were married, in Indian resort premises, registered to her sister, Lydia, but which are supposed to be an LEF centre. Rumour has it that Betty a.k.a. Liz was afraid to fly directly to India from the USA because of possible arrest by the Indian police; it seems that at the time of her father's funeral she had become involved in some kind of violent altercation in which an elderly person was assaulted, and the police were involved.
In both her Facebook profile pages and her TV appearances, Betty/Liz presents as some kind of super-spiritual person; no doubt, like her father Joshua Daniel, she thinks of herself as a 'missionary' as well as a 'pastor' (despite the Bible's warning about women assuming spiritual authority in the presence of men); no doubt, again like her father, she considers herself to be 'anointed of God' for this purpose.
Betty plays the piano and sings - not very well, unfortunately. Despite a certain lack of talent and finesse, she does this loudly and flamboyantly whenever the opportunity presents itself. John the Baptist's statement, 'I must decrease but He (Jesus) must increase', seems to have passed her by. She can also be heard repeatedly uttering 'Yes, Jesus!' when at a prayer meeting in Nepal (posted on FB by Betty herself); every LEF person knows that audibly interrupting others' prayers with such utterances indicates great spirituality, because her father, Joshua, did it all the time (!).
Followers of Betty/Liz are urged to reconsider all of the above, together with her recent spiteful blog directed at Gary Fleenor, an ex-LEF attender who had kept quiet for decades about the ill-treatment he received from the Daniel family, and their antics in the USA, out of sight of the many Indians who support them.
Readers are asked to consider the bullying, self-absorbed, unconsciously revelatory, economical with the truth, tone of Betty Daniel's blog, and ask themselves whether Betty Daniel deserves their admiration and respect, or is to be pitied; or, despite her earlier criticisms of them, has she become just another big 'spiritual fake', like her parents?
She talks Charismatic Christianese with a little bit of Rhema and tosses in a bit of William Branham to round out her toxic made in america stew. This is where revivalism can end up.
DeleteTo Anonymous 19 July 8.26pm
DeleteNeatly and accurately expressed!
Unfortunately anyone nurtured solely on a diet of Joshua Daniel's messages is easy prey for the American apostates such as William Branham, and more recently Joyce Meyer, Rick Warren, Yonggi Cho etc., when they tire of Joshua's tedious, rather loveless, domineering manner of imparting his personal rules and regulations (applicable to all except himself and his family) for their lives. Out of the frying pan, into the fire!
Disenchanted LEFers often seem to make their escape down the charismatic route, or into the dramas created by false prophet faith healers like Benny Hinn, or the cloying 'touchy feely' approach exhibited by Betty herself.
Joshua Daniel never taught, and was probably himself unaware of, basic Christian doctrine, leaving his followers very vulnerable to false teaching, especially as he virtually forbade them to pay serious attention to anyone but himself, or those he thought to be of like mind, whom he himself admired (and were usually dead, and hence no threat to his 'spiritual supremacy').
I wonder if you have read Iain Murray's 'Revival and Revivalism' published by Banner of Truth? A very thorough and good account of the history and dangers of 'revivalism'.
Betty Daniel,
DeleteYou cannot fool the readers of this site with your lies as you do on your facebook page. People volunteer in all churches but we have not seen you & your siblings volunteer in LEF or attend the “Bible college”. The Daniel family always wanted to be on stage. You father got “Indian Gary’s” to wash his Mercedes and drive you kids from Conoor to Ooty for your schooling in Hebron. Why did you as kids not take the local bus just as thousands of LEF children do? Your sister Lydia cannot not even sit in the retreats with the rest of the people, she and your mother will sit separately from everyone else. Your dad was against house ownership but he had accommodation in HQ, a house in Conoor and house(s) in the US!
Its good Gary didn’t marry you even if he was interested in you. You didn’t have the courtesy to inform your parents about Brian but eloped with Brian when they were in Chennai for a retreat. After the breakup with Brian, you lived with Chris for a while before marring him. You seem to have vacationed with Chuck in India & Europe before marriage. I accept that people can make poor choices but it is wrong to lie about these incidents.
The reality is that you lie, deceive and try to bully people in your Facebook page. Your blatant deception makes me understand how your dad deceived so many. Set the record straight and also tell us how your parents got their money, if this same source of money is available to the hundreds of LEF evangelists and why is there one set of rules for the Daniel family and a set of contrary rules for the general LEF congregation?
To Anonynous July 20, 2015 1:55 AM
It’s true that LEF did not teach basic Christian doctrine properly. They disliked Christian doctrine. Their religion and general operation revolved around the Daniels.
Betty the readers of Whistleblower are waiting for your response.
DeleteBetty Daniel's/Liz Van Camp's latest post on Facebook is entitled:
Delete'The warning signs of financial abuse'
Well, she should know, given her family background! But just how crass can a person get?
it is not published in jamakaran june15,
Deletemay i know the families who left lef in salem tamilnadu, im from salem we are in salem for more than 50 years, i know everyone, many families left lef due to some misunderstanding with preaches, did they left lef recently or at the time of bro.moses charles? reason for leaving salem lef? i want to know so that we will be careful in dealing with pastor in salem
Can JJD the present superstar of LEF speak about the Hypocrisy and Double Standards Orchestrated by his family ?.
ReplyDeleteCome on John we want to hear your exposition of Mathew 23 and its relevance to your family.
The Blunders of the Daniel Family which has brought LEF to its present pathetic state.
ReplyDelete1.Nepotism
2.Favouritism.
3.Avarice ,Greed for Land ,Wealth and Love of Money
4.Arrogance and Haughtiness .They called it god given authority.
5.Double standards (Do what i say .Dont ask me if what i do is right).
6.Financial mess .JD ran LEF as though all in LEF were there only because of him and he has the right to spend lavishly on Cars and Gadjets.
7.Immorality right in the first family and they chose to hide it under a carpet.JD wrote accusing Betty when she married her third husband.JD never wrote anything when she married Brian or the next guy.There are many other things which i can write but do not wish to do so as most of the folks are married.
If John has anything called common sense he would have realised by now that people don't respect him and those who meet him expect some favour .No person with a sane mind would meet him.
John you are not fit to be the LEF president (oops).You are not fit to be a member of LEF or any church .You guys have always been leaders not knowing that leadership requires patience,grace and love.
Repent and Apologize in public asking people to pardon your family for the sins that you guys committed over the past 50 or 60 years.
Dear LEF Friends and Fans,
ReplyDeleteI wish to draw your attention to one of the messages given by JJD's grandfather N.Daniel titled make your calling and election sure .You can read this in http://lefi.org/sermons/102558.htm.
JJD and his mother (daughter in law of N.Daniel ) must read this message ,apply it in their lives before they yell and scream from the pulpit.
1 Peter 1:10
"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" Peter is advising the people in the Church of his time, to make their election and calling sure. Certainty in religion is great gain. Vague, uncertain and shaky faith is of no help. The Holy Spirit gives us deep assurance. A pure heart will be the seat of a pure spirit. Then there will be unity between our spirit and God’s Spirit. When the heart is pure, we get this assurance and certainty in our faith. This assurance must be tested from time to time. You must see if you have fallen from grace. If not, the gracious likeness of Jesus will be found in you.
When your heart is pure, you have a clear vision. Add to your faith virtue. Faith, if it is faith, will add virtue to it. You have to add knowledge to virtue. Knowledge is always power. Virtue should be supported by knowledge from the Word. Temperance is a necessary quality. Our faith should lead us to temperance. Temperance in everything—in eating, in drinking, in sleeping and in talking, is necessary. In our love of relatives and friends also there should be God-directed temperance. There is no limit to God’s grace that will be given to you, if you follow these things. We must ask God for patience. A man who is silent and does not talk much will do very few mistakes. To patience must be added godliness. Rising early to spend time with God, singing and praising God and gathering for fasting and prayer are all godliness. To godliness must be added brotherly kindness. Very often we are kind, but that is not having love. Love brings out the divine nature in you. If these things abound in you, you will not be unfruitful in your ministry. If we keep ourselves pure and exercise ourselves to get these virtues we will never fail. There is so much to do after conversion. Our one goal is to attain to the perfect plan of God! Keep your heart pure with all diligence, for our of it are the issues of life. Proverbs 4:23.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteDear Betty
ReplyDeleteFirst off I did not post anything anonymously, I made maybe 2 or 3 posts here on the back pages where I used my name. I think April 17th they should still be there. Someone else compiled this compilation, I have no idea who runs this website.
Second the point is John never attended the Bible school, I did 2 times like Rodney Bills.So clearly there was one set of rules for him and another for me.
3rd your father had the responsibility of not offending my parents and acting in appropriate way. My parents figured out he was a crook way before I did. Asking me to drive him everywhere was wrong. To say he has no responsibility for his conduct is absurd. He had serious cash flow sending his kids to Notre Dame, he never 1 time offered to help pay for gas or anything. He was a stumbling block. Your house in South Bend had at least 3 bathrooms maybe 4 bedrooms.
4th I had to stop going because your father insisted I apologize to you which was not going to happen because I and no remorse in what i said to you.
5th your father attacked me when I called him a hypocrite. This is fact of history, he shouted get out and never come back. I had to drive to your house in South Bend to get my Bible back. I was pretty much still on me knees when he started pushing me out. I was in shock and never fought back. When U take a bunch of money from someone U can't just say get out don't come back, it is pure evil.
6th if you can dish out harsh words like he did toward me then you should be able to take it, especially when the shoe fits.
7th I was still friendly toward U after all of this, but then on facebook when you started rewriting history saying you were victim in your first marriage, I corrected U. Then you defriended me like your coward dad.
8th you have no idea what motivates me to write this.
9th Nobody cares your eldest daughter of Joshua Daniel. Christianity is not a caste system.
10th U asked me to go to India to do concerts than U ran away from home, this is rather insane behavior on your part. You were always a pain in my side, a source of irritation, you never were a blessing.
11 You and your father's shameful behavior destroyed everything. Your dad would not even repent after his heart attack which happened very shortly after I read Matt 23 at him, Even brainwashed Mrs Martin called me and asked me to to pray for him
Kind regards
Gary
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteDear Betty
ReplyDeleteOne more story:
Once there was a week long revival meeting in Oklahoma, I expressed some interest in going. So I was told I could go if drive them there, so I drove your Dad, Mom and Lydia there, of course I paid for all the gas, I had some cheap clunker not a benz like they had. I played solo guitar pieces before the service. Then I drove your mother and Lydia back home. On the way home there was not much to do so I played Bible tapes.
So the next Sunday your mom preaches, she preaches about how playing Bible tapes in car is sin. It was ridiculous, first off she could of asked for me to turn it off it bothered her, I can’t read her mind, 2nd why does she think I am her personal driver, no I am not her personal driver, since she is rich I and I was poor she could of at least helped with gas. U and your parents seem to think your the upper caste,
Really after your father ordering me how to pray and this, it was over for me, I never prayed at one of your meetings again. Your daddy took Brian's side when he threatened to beat me up after what I prayed at U. U think I am coward, get a life. I stood up to your phony jack ass Dad.
U and your parents and John are loony. Find some else to abuse.
Your mom is self righteous and loony like John and U.
Bye
Hi Betty
ReplyDeleteYet one more item:
I publicly condemned both U and Brian in your parents basement. Brian threatened to beat me up yet I never retracted my statement, also your Dad took Brain side and ordered me to take it back and apologize.
I never returned to your stupid Saturday night prayer meeting. I was done with it..
I am not the coward, I stood up for the truth nobody cared.
Your Daddy wanted to whitewash what U did,
God ordered me not to go along with it. If U think I am joking you're wrong
I am dead serious.
My only regret is I did not go back and condemn you again.
And face the music, getting beat up or worse.
Maybe the 2nd time could of condemn U more precisely and more articulately
Trust me Gods wrath was on U and Brian. Your a very bad person.
I am pretty sure what i should've said was God was not going to just punish U in this life and burn you up with disaster after disaster but when it was over you would go to everlasting burning hell and that you needed to repent, but instead I said something like if a priest daughter plays the harlot she should be stoned, which I suppose is not worded right as it not very accurate or precise( sexual sin was not the main offence, cruelty and blasphemy or some thing else)
God ordered me to cry out against U. Your a silly idiot for attacking me. I didn’t word it right
But still God's wrath was on U not me.
When I cried out against your dad, it came from God.
God ordered me to do it. He told me to read Matt 23 at him.
He is guilty not me. He spiritually raped me and depleted my finances not the other way around. He made it impossible for me to "sell" repentance to English Lake Church or my parents
His response was to attack me and say get out don’t come back. Then 1 month later he had his heart attack.
I am not the villain here U and your family is.
Your blood is on you, You're the villain not me.
On judgment day we will see who the coward is and who is right and who is wrong.
Best of luck to you
Gary
Betty U ran away from home to marry Brian about 3 months after I met U. I went to LEF about 4 years, The arguing with your dad started about 2 years in and had nothing to do with U. Your self delusion knows no bounds.
ReplyDeleteYour grandmother was very nice to me up to the end,
so obviously she was somewhat aware of your Dad's problems.
I am sure she was aware of everything i said.
She had no grudge toward me, neither did Kamala.
Kamala was aware that John was going to be a problem.
I prayed with both before I moved to California. This was back in 1989
Lots of people were there when your Dad attacked me. I am pretty sure your brothers were there.
James came out and gave me the my Bible back, I was in my car and called the police before I went to the door. But somehow James knew I was outside and came out.
Gary,
DeleteThanks for speaking the truth.JD and his family have proved to be crooks .The LEF that exists today consists of yes men who talk behind the backs
Please write more of your experiences with Francis Daniel,and the unbiblical practices in LEF.
Family.Actually the Daniel Family are big jokers.
Kamala and her husband whitson are in their evening years.They were thrown out of the headquarters by Lily and John.The family of late francis daniel are millionaires exibiting self righteousness .
Betty when Brian threatened to beat me up, there was at least 10 people in your parents house. Brian was in a fit of rage, but some Christian counselor talked him out of attacking me. How am I a bully? Are U denying this happened?
ReplyDeleteYour dad was totally aware of his threats, he ordered me to apologize to you. (which I never did)
And you were not there when most of the financial abuse took place so how would U know anything about it. Yes your parents treated me like I was their personal slave.
One time when Mrs Martin called my house asking me to pick you brothers from the airport my mother got into huge argument with her about how he treated me. The next time i saw you dad he pulled me aside and ordered me to move out of my parents house. Of course I just ignored him. But your coward dad never called me again or had Mrs Martian call me for some favor.
The neighborhood where your parents lived was very expensive, I am sure you know that. I am not that experienced with house prices in South Bend especially back 30 years ago.
Valparaiso University and Notre Dame are probably some of the most expensive in the state. No I am not jealous, I went to Valparaiso University.
Gary:
ReplyDeleteYou have no need to defend yourself against the incoherent ramblings of Betty Daniel. All the available evidence indicates that Betty is the sad product of an extremely dysfunctional family. It is clear from accounts given by those who have known her from childhood, from her own writings, attempts at 'preaching', and Facebook posts, that she has for some time been in need of psychiatric intervention. One can only hope that her present husband will be able to see that she receives it; also that those who encourage her delusional views and behaviour with their misplaced admiration, for whatever reason, will realise this and cease to do so. Admiration, whether genuine or not, only fosters the attention-seeking. It does not help her.
It is sad that the negative and irresponsible behaviour of Joshua and Lily Daniel has caused their eldest child such obvious and long-term psychological damage. Thankfully God is still able to heal all of those whom they have misled and hurt, including their own family members.
Speaking of incoherent ramblings JJD will be speaking at the USA retreat. Maybe he needs a zap from a pentecostal laying on of hands. I can't imagine him being the featured speaker anywhere. He guarantees early departures and no returning visitors.
DeleteJJD could certainly do with some kind of zap, preferably one that would put him out of action, at least re LEF, for the foreseeable future.
DeleteHowever if a 'spiritual zap' is required, he might try watching his big sister Betty on Telegu TV (not too difficult, as neither he nor she seem to speak the language of their forefathers, and of many of his present-day alleged 'flock', so unlike viewers in India, John and Betty can comfortably use American English and leave the translators to try to make sense of the nonsense they emit).
According to her broadcast persona and her Facebook page Betty is a practised purveyor of 'miracles', potentially even raising the dead in imitation of her similarly deluded father. That her 'gifts' extend to the transmitting of spiritual life to her brother John, however, is unlikely. Ezekiel would have had a very long wait if the dry bones in his vision had belonged to John Daniel.
Most of the Betty Sympathizers watch her TV show for entertainment.She is a funny joke.Betty alias Lizard Van Camp should not be taken seriously .But Lizard is more acceptable to the LEF Telugu folks as she relates to them well.
DeleteLEF under JD ran a successful Jesus Industry .This industry is now a loss making enterprise.The reasons attributed to the loss is that it was always a person driven organization .They never had a purpose or goal.The Organization existed to suit the egoistic foolish needs of JD and to meet the financial needs of his children.
So succinct!
Delete"For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple" (Romans 16:18).
ReplyDelete